In this episode, Neal and Mac discuss why knowing more than just FTP (Functional Threshold Power) is important for effective training. While FTP has traditionally been used as the sole determinant for training, there are other levels of intensity that are important for overall performance improvement.
In this episode, Neal and Mack discuss why knowing more than just FTP (Functional Threshold Power) is important for effective training. While FTP has traditionally been used as the sole determinant for training, there are other levels of intensity that are important for overall performance improvement. These include anaerobic efforts, long-distance endurance events, and neuromuscular sprinting ability, each of which requires different training targets. By solely focusing on FTP, athletes may miss out on significant improvements in performance.
To gain a better understanding of your rider type, incorporating 4DP or 4-dimensional power could be the solution. 4DP is a comprehensive measurement system used in SYSTM that evaluates four key aspects of a cyclist's fitness: neuromuscular power, maximal aerobic power, anaerobic capacity, and threshold power. By analyzing these four dimensions of power, riders can gain a deeper insight into their strengths and weaknesses, and develop a more targeted training plan to improve their overall performance. Therefore, it is important to consider and train for multiple metrics to achieve optimal performance.
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https://www.wahoofitness.com/systm/getting-started
Learn more:
https://blog.wahoofitness.com/going-beyond-threshold-power-the-sufferfest-4dp-profile/
Have a question? Ask and get answers here!
https://systm.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-knowledge-why-you-need-to-know-more-than-just-ftp/12085
Neal 0:00
Hi, I'm Neil Henderson here with Matt Cassin to talk to you about some sports science. Specifically today we're going to talk about why one training target metric is not enough. What do you think about that Mac?
Mac 0:12
Which metric are we talking about here, Neal? critical power, maximal steady state power, anaerobic threshold, lactate threshold, maximal lactate, steady state onset of lactate accumulation, lactate, turnpoint, ventilatory, threshold to maximal steady state workload, complete next.
Neal 0:28
Whoa, whoa, whoa, Mac,
kind of yes to all of those, since they tend to refer to about the same thing. What most people might call like a threshold point, again, there are so many different names, I think he just went through about 20 of them there, those things are really this upper limit of what's a sustainable output.
Mac 0:49
So it sounds like if I want to get faster at riding or running, basically, I should just focus on training this threshold number
Neal 1:48
on a Mac, I actually didn't
say that. And I'm gonna have to say no to that. And that's why we're here today to say that, hey, it's not all about that threshold. And it's really important to look beyond that. So while that point has been kind of the classic determinant that a lot of folks have used in training, so everything based on threshold, trying to improve threshold, you can be seen significant improvements in performance by doing training that really is not even anywhere targeted at that threshold. And that's really our difference in how we view training The thing that we're going to start to talk about here is well, what are these other levels? If this threshold or sustainable point isn't everything? Well, what are the other things that do truly matter?
Mac 3:03
So if we're looking at the threshold from the sort of this aerobic standpoint, then I guess what we're saying here is that it's the above that level, the anaerobic sort of efforts to shorter 25, minute, five minute 32nd, five second, that duration of effort,
Neal 3:18
Definitely, there's also some component of really long distance that is actually then performed that efforts below that breakpoint of the threshold. So if you think about a, you know, very long road race, or super, like multi-day endurance event, or just a single long ultra distance, you know, gravel ride or mountain bike race, you're not going to be holding that threshold, because, you know, typically we think about that threshold point being sustainable for about an hour for a well-trained athlete, you know, plus or minus a little So we use the term often FTP as a name for that a functional threshold power or pace goes both ways there again, depending on the kind of sport you're talking about, but what we look at in our training is that threshold point is actually the lowest cutoff for us of kind of higher intensity. And we have really three levels that we look at above that from going just above that is what we consider kind of a level at vo to max or max aerobic power max aerobic pace, we look at anaerobic capacity above that level. And then at the top end, we look at neuromuscular power, neuromuscular and sprinting ability effectively.
Mac 4:53
So as a hypothetical, then what we're talking about is you can have individuals with identical ftps, within one of them might have a better map or anaerobic capacity.
Neal 5:16
Absolutely, yes.
Unknown Speaker 5:17
And that's really the big difference. So if you use a single point, Target, FTP, for all your training, you make the assumption then that everything else is going to be similarly stressful for different people. And we know from all of the testings that we've done, and all of the 1000s of tests that users have done with our different protocols, that that assumption is very false. And that those differences get even bigger, the higher above the threshold we go. So that map target might be, you know, on average, around, say, 20%, higher than an individual's FTP, if we're looking at power, though, that range can be anywhere from you know, maybe just under 110%, of FTP up to an excess of 140%. Once we get into those higher levels, anaerobic capacity, then we see an even greater spread of ability, maybe you know, from the low end and the 130 140%, of FTP power for where that anaerobic capacity level is for a given individual, up to over 200%. And then when we go that next step up, our neuromuscular sprinting ability, man, that spread really opens up again, some folks absolutely all out are maybe close to 200% of their FTP power. So you know, if you think of a guy who's pretty good at riding a bike, I think Chris Boardman is one that comes to mind, when nettles and yellow jersey, Tour de France, things like that, I think is like FTP at the time was somewhere in the 400-watt range, and all load spring, he could do 800 watts. So that's about 200%. And he was pretty good at bike riding, though he wasn't a sprinter. You look at a true sprinter, they might have an FTP of Oh, I don't know, 300 watts, but they have a peak power of over 2100 watts. So that's 700%, of FTP. And we see regular people that even see, you know, 800%, of FTP for their spreadability, relative to FTP, so being able to target their high-intensity training relative to their individual abilities, not just based on FTP, but across those four different targets, is really what's most important, and why we look at things in this way.
Mac 7:32
Yeah, I
think it's interesting when you look at these efforts, or all of these different metrics, and kind of view them more from just an energy production standpoint, right? When you're putting out power or running, you're needing to produce that energy. And when it's more aerobic, then that's a lower intensity. And there are different ways that your body's producing that aerobically. And you can use fat and you can use carbohydrates, once you go to that higher intensity, and you need more energy faster, your body's capable of doing that, but it does it in less and less efficient ways. So that's why you can see such a large discrepancy. Once you get into those really anaerobic energy pathways. Some people can produce a lot of energy really quickly for really short durations, some people can produce a decent amount for pretty short efforts, but then they can regenerate or recover that much faster. So there's, really multiple components to it, which is so fascinating why it's really important that you know, all of those individual components are taken into account when you are going out to train to stress those energy systems to try and get better to get faster.
Neal 8:32
Exactly. And that's one of the really important things to keep in mind when we look at these different levels, that there are some interrelationships between them.
Unknown Speaker 8:42
So looking at the relationship between these can kind of give you an idea of where you might need to emphasize more of your training. Right. And so I think one of the best examples that we see a lot especially with triathletes is when their map their maximum aerobic power is 110 115% above their FTP they because of the nature of like long course triathlons, people just assume you need to just FTP, FTP, FTP But in reality without that aerobic ceiling being raised without a higher map, their FTP won't go up any higher, there's a limit to how close those do can be. And so it might be, what's holding your FTP back might be that maximum aerobic power, which means you know, vo two max intervals, even though your race might be a three hour bike leg.
Neal 10:18
Exactly. And
that's one thing that sometimes people make a little bit of a mistake when they look at the demand of the event. And so if your FTP is limited by that maximal aerobic ceiling, then you know, you're leaving something on the table,
Unknown Speaker 11:55
Like you said, there's just so much crossover between a lot of these densities, to the point where as the energy systems, there's a big crossover there. And so just because you might be doing, you know, anaerobic capacity efforts that are well above your eating your maximal aerobic power, you know, that the energy systems involved, specifically, once you start to recover from those efforts, that's training the aerobic system to some extent, you're getting a benefit of training your body to recover faster between efforts. So like you said, on race day, you're doing hard efforts, the ability to recover from those quickly is going to be just as important as being able to hold a sustained high power.
Neal 12:32
Absolutely. the ability to do a certain amount of work, recover, and then do again, is really going to be one of the hallmarks for success.
Mac 13:11
And even if you don't look at doing some of these harder, high-intensity efforts explicitly for the point of your race, or the event you're targeting, if that type of training gives you the ability to go harder and do harder training sessions in the future, that's going to benefit you further, having that greater ability to recover greater ability to do high power, do more efforts in a session is going to benefit you long term, even if you never touch that intensity in your target event.
Neal 13:48
Absolutely. There's carryover and crossover. And there's also confidence in seeing your abilities improve across a continuum, rather than just one thing. So let's talk a little bit about what we mean when we're talking about some of these higher intensity efforts. So if we're talking about sprinting, you know, these are very short efforts. I would say on the upper end, a sprint might be around 30 seconds long. And this can go as short as literally just a couple of seconds. And so something like your vertical leap ability to actually is a pretty good analog to what your neuromuscular power is. But it's not just that muscular power that you can generate, but it's also the coordination of the movement. And so when we think about that neuromuscular power, there's an activation component of actually having the nerves basically connecting to the muscles to allow them to fire and produce the greatest force at the greatest speed, that that combination is true power. Speed alone, isn't it, and force alone, isn't it? So, as a as an interesting thing, you know, most people, when they think about sprinting, on a bike, they always shifted into a harder gear, and then they start and they're pushing a really big force, but they might not be hitting their highest power, most force, yes, but not most power. So it's some, some interplay between those two. But these are very short efforts. And you can think of, you know, a single one off sprint effort as being important, or the ability to kind of repeat those types of sprint efforts then starts to dip a little bit into the next realm, our anaerobic capacity, which is kind of what Mark was talking about, with that ability to recharge and recover that anaerobic capacity repeatedly or go for a longer than, say, 32nd effort, if you're talking a minute, minute and a half, you're clearly going to be very deep into the realm of that anaerobic capacity.
Unknown Speaker 17:28
And dipping back into that anaerobic capacity side of things. There are a few different ways you can test for that, you know, a pretty standard one is a wind gate, which if you've never done one, you should consider yourself lucky because it's the longest 30 seconds of your life. But basically, we're just looking at how much can you empty the tank over that time period, we prefer when we were measuring that we prefer to have it as its full minute long effort at the end of our test protocol because we're not just looking at that absolute empty the tank, we're looking at how much can you actually recharge that tank, because, you know, if we're trying to use that anaerobic capacity number to set your training targets if we don't know if you can do that effort five times if we know you can do it once, but we're not sure if you can actually recover to do it. Again, it's not really a super useful training metric, because we can't say go do it at 80% of that 20 seconds on 10 seconds off for three minutes because we have no idea if you can actually maintain that. But if we like measuring it at the end, we get sort of a better picture of the rechargeability and the discharge ability.
Neal 18:33
Definitely, and that's super important. Again, that ability to repeat is one of the critical differentiators with anaerobic capacity. So if you think of somebody who does, you know, if you do criterium racing with you know, four corners, you know, just a standard square core, something like that, every single corner, you're gonna have that acceleration, in most cases that's going to be dipping into that anaerobic capacity. And if it's a short course, that's a kilometer, you're doing one every you know, 1520 seconds throughout a race and if it's an hour-long race while you do the math, that's a whole lot of accelerations and a whole lot of dipping into that anaerobic capacity and being properly prepared to be able to do that definitely takes work and that anaerobic capacity work is is I think most people would say uncomfortable Mac wouldn't be a word that would be a word for it. I probably use a more colorful one personally but yes, yep AC work is not easy in that way. In addition to AC, we have another target that we use. So in-between kind of that AC and FTP we have this map or max aerobic power at vo two max. So tell me a little bit about what is vo two max.
Mac 19:43
So vo two Max is the measure of how much oxygen is your body able to utilize when you're doing any sort of activity. You can theoretically test your via to max for any type of activity, and it'll be different depending on the activity. The other really important component that I think a lot of people miss out on is, you know, a lot of people say, okay, your VOD Max is genetic. That's true. And it's limited by your training. That's true, and it has age impacts it to some extent, that can be true. But a lot of people say oh, you can't improve your co2 max after a certain point. And maybe that's true, it's not really but if you look at it in a different way, you can still improve your economy via to Max, you can produce more power, or go faster for that same amount of oxygen. And that's where training can become really valuable, even if you are theoretically maxed out your co2.
Neal 21:00
And it takes a lot of time and works to truly reach that absolute ceiling for vo to Max, like we're talking years of dedicated training to the point where Okay, maybe you have a limited capacity to improve the oxygen consumption part of you to the max but continuing to improve your economy will still yield an increased power for that same amount of vo to or oxygen consumption. And that will make a difference. And then also, how long can you sustain that level. So if you can sustain 95% of your vo to the max for 10 minutes versus someone else who can only assist, or who could sustain a little bit higher percentage of big Max, but only for three minutes. That person with that 10 minutes sustainability at 95% might be somebody who could hold a higher percentage of 98%, say for just three or four or five minutes. So there are still ways of improving beyond just a straight-up, you know, seeing the number get higher or not.
Mac 21:58
And as we talked about earlier, like the FTP to map relationship, it's another way to look at is just from the oxygen consumption is you can have your peak oxygen consumption, and then you have a reduced amount that you can hold for a really long time. And so if your oxygen consumption at threshold is pretty close to what it is at vo two Max, you that you're not going to get better at sustained efforts, because you need that ceiling to be higher, it's not really possible to be at 100% of the max for an hour. So if you want your FTP to be equal to your map power, you need to move the map power up first.
Neal 22:32
So with all that in mind, I think we probably you know, hopefully, laid a good foundation of understanding why just looking at like one point why FTP or threshold or heart rate at threshold pace, a threshold is not the be all end all. But it's a piece of the mix. But it's really important to look beyond in those other levels that are above that, even if your goal is just to be faster in those steady-state types of efforts that are more related to threshold, but not exclusively. Do you agree with that statement? Mac?
Mac 23:05
Absolutely. And I think this is a topic we'll definitely be touching on and in other forms and fashions in the future. So if there's something specific we touched on that you'd like us to elaborate on, please let us know.
Neal 23:17
All right, well, that's a wrap. Thank you very much Mac and thank you all for tuning in here to this episode of the knowledge podcast brought to you by wahoo sports science. We will catch you next time
Transcribed by https://otter.ai